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`0:15:30`

I don't want anyone else's business. I don't want to put myself in someone else's shoes. I know how to do my thing, and that's enough for me. I don't need to stroke the ego and go, "I could do this again somewhere else. I could turn something..." I don't…

`0:16:16`

-because you said a bunch of things. — Yeah. — The serial entrepreneurship I want to hit on, because you and I were talking about- — Yeah. the conversation I had with John Mackey- — Yes. — where he was referencing some of his friends just love to start. And you're like, "Oh, I actually have this metaphor that I want…

`0:17:01`

No. Any business, I wouldn't take. I'd take mine over anyone else's business. So, I don't have... — What is the underlying thought there? It's just like... — I built the company I want to work at. I built the business I want to be in. Like, no one else has that. I have…

`0:17:48`

Let's get into the envelope thing, because this is kind of part of that. — Okay. — And I remember when I was getting started being an envelope guy. So, the envelope, to me, there's this two sides of business, basically. There's the envelope, and there's the letter. The envelope is the outside, the shell…

`0:18:33`

And I think there's a number of people... And by the way, it's fine. All this is fine. What I'm getting at is, you've got to know who you are and what you want out of yourself and what you want to do. And if you're an envelope person, that's fine…

`0:19:20`

There's just losses. And then it's like a mad rush to get out at a certain valuation for other people who put money in. That's like turning a business into an asset, a financial instrument. It's just not interesting to me. I want to make things. I want to build products, and that…

`0:20:06`

When I think of this stuff, and sometimes these metaphors don't perfectly line up, but in my head, I think of a thick business. It's hard to change, it's heavy, it's massive. There's too much distance between it and the customers and it and the product. There's space, right? If you…

`0:20:53`

That's my vision for business. It's not the only vision. Plenty of people, way more successful than me don't see it this way. I don't care. Like, this is just how I see it and how I'm sharing it. And it's mainly just to show people that you don't have…

`0:21:41`

But then there's a point where you actually just want to sit in orbit and sort of maintain. You want to be within a certain range and fluctuate a little bit up, a little bit down, but be in this comfortable place where you're just orbiting. You're not breaking a force anymore. You're…

`0:22:27`

So what? Why? Why? What's that all about? And they may have an answer for you. I don't know what the answer would be, other than just growing for growth's sake. But I'm a big fan of getting somewhere and then holding. — When I think of you, I think one of your maxims…

`0:23:13`

that could lead to more growth, more revenue, more whatever, more whatever, and my answer is "So what?" I'm very comfortable with where we are. We've got a great business, high margins, very predictable. We make new stuff all the time. We enjoy ourselves. We have a great time. Like, I don't want to…

`0:23:59`

— Yeah. — You seem to have this inherent natural revulsion against optimization. — Yeah, I don't like optimization. — Okay. — Actually, okay, here's the consistency thing. It's all about context. I don't like optimization around numbers. We can make 5 million on this. Well, it'd be amazing if we could make 5.1 if we…

`0:24:46`

Actually, beyond not fun boring. I don't even know what would be beyond that, but I'm not interested in that at all. I'd rather spend the money making the thing I make better. That is the thing I'm here for, not to squeeze an extra 100 grand out of something or an extra…

`0:25:32`

What? Of what? I make products. I run the company with David. David and I run it together. I don't need the CEO. — How do you say... — Chief Executive Officer. Of what, again? Like, of what? We make decisions. That's what we do. We make decisions. We make products. We hire great people that we…

`0:26:20`

I don't know what the hell that means. Yesterday, I answered 200 emails from my customers. Some people would say that's irresponsible for a CEO to spend their time emailing customers. I think it's the best thing you can do. — Yeah. — But I don't think of myself as a CEO. — I would say…

`0:27:07`

You're a very thoughtful guy, and you see how much thought you put into the design of everything in your life. It just happens you've also put a lot of thought into designing products in the business. Again, to fit exactly who you are as a person. — Yeah, as best I can. I mean, I…

`0:27:53`

He paid attention to incentives. He realized they would, over time, just tell him what he wants to hear. And so, therefore, he was getting- — Of course. — his ass kissed all the time, not getting useful information. So, he's like, forget this. I don't want to talk to them. — Yeah. He had a driver, and…

`0:28:39`

and we should do it again, actually. We used to have this thing called Everyone on Support, where people would do it for a day, rotate through the company. Mostly so I would do it, and so David would do it, and now I do it anyway. But it's very important. When I lived in Chicago…

`0:29:25`

He would know because he would know who they are, and he knew their family, the whole thing. So, I've always tried as best I can to get as close to... I can't get as close to our customers. We have too many of them, in that sense. But whenever you sign up for Basecamp…

`0:30:11`

Because somehow it permeates me, and I get to feel what it's like to be them, and get to understand what it's like for them to use the lever that we've made for them to move something. And there's no other way to do that for me than to just share my email…