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`3:31:38`

who are constantly driving to a data center somewhere to rack new boxes and change dead RAM. That's not how things happen in the modern world at all. We have a company called Summit, previously Deft, that is what we call white gloves. They work in the data center when we need something like, "Hey Deft…

`3:32:39`

And those folks, in order to achieve the speed of building up the cluster and to solve some of the novel aspects that have to do with the GPU, with the training, they have to be a little bit more hands on. It's a less white glove. — Oh, and I love that, right? They're dealing…

`3:33:41`

I don't know what that is. Actually, I've never actually seen, maybe you could speak to that. He's good at finding greatness. — I don't think he's finding as much as he's attracting. He's attracting the talent because of the audacious of his goals and his mission. The clarity by which…

`3:34:46`

we don't fully know how to analyze it. We think of Elon as finding great talent and I'm sure he is also good at that. But I also think that this beacon of the mission, we're going to fucking Mars. We're gonna transform transportation into using electricity. We're gonna cover the earth…

`3:35:49`

But I think it also has to do a bunch of the other components. Like being able to hire well once the people, once the beacon attracts. And I've just seen people that don't necessarily on paper have a resume with the track record. I've seen really who now turned out to be like…

`3:36:50`

I guess you see in startups at the early stages. But like it's cool to see it at a large company that's actually able to achieve scale, you know? — I think part of the secret there is that Elon actually knows things. And when you know things, you can evaluate the quality of work products…

`3:37:51`

And is this at our tiny scale, something I've tried to do in the same order where when we hire programmers, for example, it's gonna be interesting now with AI as the new challenge. But up until this point, the main pivot point for getting hired was not your resume, was not the schooling you…

`3:38:53`

where I thought for sure this candidate is a shoe-in, they sound just right, the CV is just right and then you see the code getting turned in. I'm like, no way. No way are we hiring this person. And the other way has been true as well. I've go like, I don't…

`3:39:53`

you realize no, it can be done simpler. Find the way. So there's a good, when two engineers are talking, one might not have perfect information. But if the senior engineer has like good instinct that's like been battle earned, then you can say simplify. And it actually will result in simplification. — And I think…

`3:40:55`

in a way that would garner disbelief from the people who are supposed to do it. Like this guy is full of shit. Like this is crazy. We can never, and then two months later it is. So there is something of this where you need the vision, you need it anchored by the reality of knowing…

`3:42:00`

Now they have a logistics person who's very good at sourcing components and lining up production Gantt charts, but you're not getting that magic. Now what's interesting with that whole scenario was I actually thought how well Tim Cook ran things and has run things at Apple for so long that maybe we were…

`3:43:01`

— Since you mentioned Apple, I have to ask somebody in the internet submitted the question. Does DHH still hate Apple? I believe the question is. So there was a time when Basecamp went to war with Apple over the 30%. Can you tell the saga of that battle? — Yes, but first I'll tell you, I fell…

`3:44:03`

And just overall unpleasant, I think. You can have respect for what was achieved, but I certainly didn't like it. And as we've talked about, I came begrudgingly to the PC after Commodore fell apart and I couldn't continue to use the Amiga. So I already had a bit of a bone to pick…

`3:45:03`

And I continued that work over many years. Jason or I actually in I think 2004, 2005, did an ad for Apple that they posted on the developer side where we were all about like Apple is so integral to everything that we do and we look up to them and we are inspired by them. And…

`3:46:07`

to buy a first generation product where Apple staff would clap at you when you walked out the store. I don't know if you remember that. It was a whole ceremony and it was part of that myth and mystique and awe of Apple. So I wasn't in the market for other computers. I wasn…

`3:47:08`

Well, it wasn't a mobile phone. It was a mobile computer. And even more than that, it was the most important computer or it would become the most important computer for most people around the world. Which meant that if you liked to make software and wanted to sell it to people, you had to go…

`3:48:09`

sort of attempt to solve the email problem. — Yes, I like to pitch it as what Gmail would've been with 20 years of lessons applied in a way where they could actually ship. Gmail was incredible when it launched in 2004. And it still is a great product but it's also trapped in its initial…

`3:49:11`

is sent through Gmail. I think their world rates are probably in that neighborhood as well. They're just absolutely huge and trying to attack an enormous established competitor like that who's so actually still loved by plenty of people. And is free seems like a suicide mission. And it was only a mission we signed…

`3:50:12`

You're not gonna be a serious contender with email if you're not on a mobile phone and you need to be there with a native client. So we had built a great native client for both iOS and for Android. And as we were getting ready to launch, we submitted both of them to the…

`3:51:14`

or you can't be in the app store. And first I thought like, well it got approved already. We're running on the same model. We've run Basecamp on in the app store for a decade. If you're not signing up through the app and we're signing up our own customers on our…