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`5:07:05`

than me would ever care about. And then I got out of the Apple bubble and suddenly I had to find everything again. I had to find a new mouse, I had to find a new keyboard, I had to find everything. And I thought like, all right, let me give mechanical keyboards a try. And I…

`5:08:05`

until you find the thing where the angels starts singing, whatever. — That's exactly right. And I actually do regret that a little bit, especially with this damn keyboard. I mean, I could have been listening to these beautiful thocky keys for years and years, but sometimes you have to get really off before you open your…

`5:09:08`

And again, it's not 'cause I hate Apple. I think they still make good computers. I think a lot of the software is still also pretty okay. But I have come to realize that as a web developer, Linux is just better. Linux is just better. It's closer to what I deploy on. The tooling…

`5:10:09`

But I look at that and go like, this is better. This is beautiful. And then you look at some of those true Linux rising setups where people go nuts with everything and you go, oh yeah, I remember when computers used to be fun in this way, when there was this individuality and this setup. And…

`5:11:12`

and I used that. And I always thought it was ridiculous that people would slag it just because you had to charge it by flipping it over. 'Cause the battery would last for three months and then you'd charge it for half an hour. I thought like, that's a perfect compatibility with my sensibilities. I…

`5:12:14`

Even on Windows, you can't get it that smooth. You can get close, you can't get it that smooth. On macOS, for whatever reason, Apple insists on having this infuriating animation when you switch between virtual desktops, which makes it just that you don't want to. You don't wanna run full screen apps…

`5:13:15`

because just of that latency and it's like, oh, you can do that on Linux? Oh, that's pretty cool. So I run that, and then my editor of choice now is Neovim. — Oh good, all right. Well we're out of time. No, all right, you did for many, many years. You used, what is…

`5:14:15`

but how featureful as this editor is this? — It's quite featureful, but it's a GUI-driven editor in some regards. It was really early on with ways of recording macros and having sort of sophisticated syntax highlighting. And it did a bunch of firsts and it was just a really pleasant editing experience. I think…

`5:15:19`

I want to text editor. I want interact with characters directly. And Neovim allows me to do that in some ways that are even better than TextMate. And I love TextMate, but Vi as you know. Once you learn the commands and it sounds, I sometimes feel like Vi fans overplay how difficult it is to learn…

`5:16:20`

And I had three days of annoyance and already the next week I was like, this is sweet. I'm not going anywhere. But I also had a bit of a head start about 20 years ago in early 2000s. I tried Vim for like a summer and it didn't stick. I didn't for whatever…

`5:17:22`

Would TypeScript be the third then? — TypeScript wouldn't even be in this universe. I hate TypeScript as much as I like JavaScript. — So what you hate, oh man, I'm not smart enough to understand the math of that. Okay, before I ask about other programming languages, if you can encapsulate your hatred of TypeScript into…

`5:18:23`

I see the type gymnastics that you sometimes have to do and where a bunch of people give up and just do any instead, right? Like that they don't actually use the type system because it's just too frustrating to use. So I've ever only felt the frustration of TypeScript and the obfuscation of…

`5:19:24`

— There's something deeply enjoyable about a brilliant programmer such as yourself, DHH is talking shit. It's like one of my favorite things in life. What are the top three programming languages everyone should learn if you're talking to a beginner? — I would 100% start with Ruby. It is magic for beginners in terms of…

`5:20:26`

There's a book called "Learn to Program" by Pine that uses Ruby essentially to just teach basic programming principles that I've seen heavily recommended. So that's a great language. — [Lex] How quickly would you go to Rails? — It depends on what you wanna do. If you wanna build web applications, go to Rails right…

`5:21:26`

on a real program. — Yeah, yeah, for sure. — So I would start there. But then number two, I probably would be JavaScript. Because JavaScript just is the language you need to know if you wanna work with the web. And the web is the greatest application platform of all time if you're making business software, collaboration…

`5:22:28`

But at some point, you're gonna hit the limit and you should use something else. I'm not someone who prescribed just Ruby for everything. Just once you reach the level of abstraction that's involved with web applications, Ruby is superb. But if you're writing, for example, HTTP proxy, go, it's great for…

`5:23:29`

— They are always going to show up. It must be some kind of OCaml industrial complex or something like this. But they always say mention OCaml. — I love that there are people who love functional languages to that degree. Those people are not me. I don't care at all. Like I care about functional principles when…

`5:24:32`

It's actually not readable at all. — That's the problem I've had with Lisp. — OCaml is very intuitive, very readable. It's nice. — I really should pick up a language like that at some point. I've been programming long enough that it's a little embarrassing that I haven't actually done anything real…

`5:25:34`

I really wanted to become a games programmer. And then I saw what it took to write a collision detection engine. And I go like, yeah, that's not me at all. I'm never gonna be into vector matrix manipulation or any of that stuff. It's way too much math and I'm more of…

`5:26:37`

and for my own delight. I can get away with that because I'm working in a high level language like Ruby, working on collaboration software and to-do lists and all the other stuff. Again, if I was trying to apply my talents to writing 3D game engines, no, that's not the right mindset. That…