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`3:24:30`

that what AWS built was marvelous. I think the cloud has moved so many things so far forward, especially around virtualization, automation setup. It's all those giant forward for system administration that's allowing us now to be able to run things on-prem in a way that smells and feels much like the cloud just…

`3:25:32`

especially I'd say in the last four to five years after TSMC with Apple's help really pushed the envelope. I mean, we kind of sat still there for a while while Intel was spinning their wheels going nowhere. And then TSMC with Apple propelling them really moved things forward. And now servers are exciting again…

`3:26:34`

with the latest machines and then saving the money. And that has all been so enjoyable to do, but also so counterintuitive for a lot of people because it seemed, I think for a lot of people in the industry that like we'd all decided that we were done buying computers, that that was something we…

`3:27:36`

that hardware seem slightly more enjoyable. Now there are things you have to learn, certainly at our scale too. I mean, we're not just buying a single computer and plugging into an ethernet. We have to have racks and racks with them and you gotta set it up with network cabling and there is some specialized…

`3:28:37`

is that if you could move out of the cloud, can you also move out of the data center? Personal servers have gotten really scarily quick and efficient and personal internet connections rival what we connected data centers with just a decade or two ago. So there's a whole community around this concept of home lapping…

`3:29:37`

in the way that back then, I ran the whole business on a single box with 2004 technology or probably a hundred megabit cable. Like the capacity we have access to both in terms of compute and connectivity is something that people haven't readjusted to. And this happens sometimes in technology where progress sneaks up on…

`3:30:38`

I think we're a little bit in that same phase when it comes to the capacity of new businesses to be launched literally out of your damn bedroom. — So you can get pretty far with a large user based with home labing? — Absolutely. — That's exciting. That's like the old school. That's really exciting…

`3:31:38`

who are constantly driving to a data center somewhere to rack new boxes and change dead RAM. That's not how things happen in the modern world at all. We have a company called Summit, previously Deft, that is what we call white gloves. They work in the data center when we need something like, "Hey Deft…

`3:32:39`

And those folks, in order to achieve the speed of building up the cluster and to solve some of the novel aspects that have to do with the GPU, with the training, they have to be a little bit more hands on. It's a less white glove. — Oh, and I love that, right? They're dealing…

`3:33:41`

I don't know what that is. Actually, I've never actually seen, maybe you could speak to that. He's good at finding greatness. — I don't think he's finding as much as he's attracting. He's attracting the talent because of the audacious of his goals and his mission. The clarity by which…

`3:34:46`

we don't fully know how to analyze it. We think of Elon as finding great talent and I'm sure he is also good at that. But I also think that this beacon of the mission, we're going to fucking Mars. We're gonna transform transportation into using electricity. We're gonna cover the earth…

`3:35:49`

But I think it also has to do a bunch of the other components. Like being able to hire well once the people, once the beacon attracts. And I've just seen people that don't necessarily on paper have a resume with the track record. I've seen really who now turned out to be like…

`3:36:50`

I guess you see in startups at the early stages. But like it's cool to see it at a large company that's actually able to achieve scale, you know? — I think part of the secret there is that Elon actually knows things. And when you know things, you can evaluate the quality of work products…

`3:37:51`

And is this at our tiny scale, something I've tried to do in the same order where when we hire programmers, for example, it's gonna be interesting now with AI as the new challenge. But up until this point, the main pivot point for getting hired was not your resume, was not the schooling you…

`3:38:53`

where I thought for sure this candidate is a shoe-in, they sound just right, the CV is just right and then you see the code getting turned in. I'm like, no way. No way are we hiring this person. And the other way has been true as well. I've go like, I don't…

`3:39:53`

you realize no, it can be done simpler. Find the way. So there's a good, when two engineers are talking, one might not have perfect information. But if the senior engineer has like good instinct that's like been battle earned, then you can say simplify. And it actually will result in simplification. — And I think…

`3:40:55`

in a way that would garner disbelief from the people who are supposed to do it. Like this guy is full of shit. Like this is crazy. We can never, and then two months later it is. So there is something of this where you need the vision, you need it anchored by the reality of knowing…

`3:42:00`

Now they have a logistics person who's very good at sourcing components and lining up production Gantt charts, but you're not getting that magic. Now what's interesting with that whole scenario was I actually thought how well Tim Cook ran things and has run things at Apple for so long that maybe we were…

`3:43:01`

— Since you mentioned Apple, I have to ask somebody in the internet submitted the question. Does DHH still hate Apple? I believe the question is. So there was a time when Basecamp went to war with Apple over the 30%. Can you tell the saga of that battle? — Yes, but first I'll tell you, I fell…

`3:44:03`

And just overall unpleasant, I think. You can have respect for what was achieved, but I certainly didn't like it. And as we've talked about, I came begrudgingly to the PC after Commodore fell apart and I couldn't continue to use the Amiga. So I already had a bit of a bone to pick…