Jeff Bezos

`2:48:53`

And that we were able to stomach that level of adversity on the merits of an idea because it was about the idea. It wasn't about the person and it never really got personal. Not even never really, it didn't get personal. It wasn't like, Jason, you're an asshole. It was like, Jason, you're an idiot. And you're an idiot because you're looking at this problem the wrong way. And let me tell you the right way to do it. — As a small tangent, let me say this. Some people have said, oh, probably return to this, that you're sometimes can have flights of temper on the internet and so on. I never take it that way because it is the same kind of ilk. Maybe I haven't seen the right kind of traces of temper, but usually it's about the idea and it's just excited, passionate human. — That's exactly what I like to think of it as. It doesn't always come across as that. And I can see why spectators in particular sometimes

`2:49:54`

would see something that looks like I'm going after the man rather than the ball. And I do think I've tried to get better at that. But in my relationship with Jason, I think it's worked so well because we have our own distinct areas of competence where we fully trust each other. Jason trusts me to make the correct technical decisions. I trust him to make the correct design and product direction decisions, and then we can overlap and share on the business, on marketing, on writing, on other aspects of it. So that's one thing is that if you're starting a business with someone where you do exactly the same as they do and you're constantly contesting who's the more competent person, I think that's far more difficult and far more volatile. So if you're starting a business and you're both programmers and you both work on the same kind of programming, ah, good luck. I think that's hard. I tried to pick an easier path working with a designer where I knew that at least half of the time

`2:50:55`

I could just delegate to his experience and competence and say like, do you know what? I may have an opinion, I have an opinion all the time on design. But I don't have to win the argument because I trust you. Now occasionally we would have overlaps on business or direction where we'd both feel like we had a strong stake in the game and we both had a claim to competence in that area. But then for whatever reason, we also both had a long-term vision were I would go, do you know what? I think we're wrong here. But as I learned from Jeff Bezos, by the way, I'm gonna disagree and commit. That was one of those early lessons he gave us that was absolutely crucial and perhaps even instrumental in ensuring that Jason and I have been working together for a quarter of a century. Disagree and commit is one of the old time Jeff Bezos greats. — I'm just surprised that Yoko Ono hasn't come along. You know what I mean? Like there's so many Yokos in this world. — It might have happened. If not in part because we don't sit on each other's lap

`2:51:56`

all the time. Most of our careers, we haven't even lived in the same city. Like I lived in Chicago for a couple of years while we were getting going after I'd moved to the US in 2005. But then I moved to Malibu and then I lived in Spain and then I lived in Copenhagen. And Jason and I from the foundation of our relationship learned how to work together in a remarkably efficient way where we didn't have to actually talk that much. On any given week, I'd be surprised if Jason and I spent more than two hours of direct exchange and communication. — Yeah, sometimes it's the basic human frictions that you just accumulate. — Yes, I think you rub up against another person, that person well better be your spouse if it's too much for too long. — Yeah, but even there. — Even there. — COVID has really test the relationship. It's fascinating to watch. — It has, and I do think that having some separation, which is kind of counterintuitive because I think a lot of people think the more collaboration you can have, the better.

`2:52:56`

The more ideas that can bounce back and forth, the better. And both Jason and I, for whatever reason, came to the conclusion early on in careers. Absolutely not, that's complete baloney. This is why we were huge proponents of remote work. This is why I enjoy working in my home office where I can close the door and not see another human for like six hours at the time. I don't wanna bounce ideas off you all the time. I wanna bounce ideas off you occasionally and then I wanna go off and implement those ideas. There's way too much bouncing going on and not enough scoring, not enough dunking. And I think this is one of the great traps of executive rule. Once a founder elevates themselves all the way up to an executive where what they're doing is just telling other people what to do, that's the realm they live in 24/7. They just live in the idea realm. Oh, I can just tell more people more things what to do and we can just see it happen. If you actually have to be part of implementing that, you slow your horse. You think like, do you know what? I had a good idea last week. I'm gonna save the rest of my good ideas