Jeff Bezos

`2:43:48`

He gave us the economic confidence, but then he also gave us the confidence of a CEO running perhaps at the time the most important internet business in the US. Showing up to our calls, which we would have with him like once a year and basically just going like, yeah, you guys are doing awesome stuff. You should just keep doing awesome stuff. I read your book, it's awesome. You launched this thing, it's awesome. You should just do more of that. I don't actually know how to run your business. You guys know it. — So the book goes out. I'm just so, from a fan perspective, I'm curious about how Jeff Bezos was able to see, 'cause to me, you and Jason, like especially humans in the space of tech. And the fact that Jeff was able to see that, right? How hard is it to see that? — He certainly saw it very early. And I think this is something that Jeff does better than almost anyone else. He spots that opportunity so far in advance of anyone else even opened their eyes to it, or certain he is willing to bet on it far early and far harder than anyone else is. And he's just right time and again. I mean, we were not the only investment that he made.

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And certainly Amazon had a extremely long-term vision. So far longer than I have ever had the gumption to keep. Like I think of myself as a long-term thinker. I am playing a child's game compared to the game that Jeff is playing. Like when I looked at Amazon's economics around the dot- com boom and bust, they looked ridiculous. Like they were losing so much money. They were so hated by the market they were... no one believed that it was gonna turn into what it is, but Jeff did. In a way that that level of conviction I really aspire to. And I think that's one of the main things I've taken away from that relationship is that you can just believe in yourself to that degree against those odds. That's ridiculous. He did that at so many times our level that it's pathetic if I'm doubting myself. — Yeah, I think Amazon is one of those companies. I mean, it's come under a bunch of criticism over the years.

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This is something about humans that don't appreciate so much that we take for granted the positive that a thing brings real quick and then we just start criticizing the thing. It's the Wi-Fi and the airplanes. — [DHH] That's exactly it. — But I think Amazon, there could be a case made that Amazon is one of the greatest companies in the last a hundred years — For sure, I think it's an easy case to make. What I also think is that the price you pay to be one of the greatest companies in the last a hundred years is a lot of detractors, a lot of pushback, a lot of criticism that this is actually order restored in the universe. One of my favorite teachers in all the time I've been on the internet is Kathy Sierra. I don't know if you know her work, but she was actually Vern a few short years before the cruel internet ran her off. But she wrote a blog called Creating Passionate Users and she carved into my brain this notion of balance in the universe.

`2:46:51`

If you are creating something of value that a lot of people love, you must create an equal and opposite force of haters. You cannot have people who love what you do without also having people who hate what you do. The only escape from that is mediocrity. If you are so boring and so uninteresting that no one gives a damn whether you exist or not, yeah, you don't get the haters, but you also don't get the impact of people who really enjoy your work. And I think Amazon is that just at the massive scale, right? They brought so much value and change to technology to commerce that they must simply have a black hole size of haters, otherwise the universe is simply gonna tip over. — Let me ask you about small teams. So you mentioned Jason a bunch of times, Jason Fried, you have been partners for a long, long time. Perhaps it's fair to say he's more on the sort of the design business side and you're like the tech, the engineering wizard. How have you guys over all these years

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creating so many amazing products, not murder each other? It's a great story of like partnership. What can you say about collaboration? What can you say that about Jason that you love that you've learned from? Why does this work? — So first I'll say we have tried to murder each other several times over the years, but far less, I think in the last decade. In the early days, our product discussions were so fierce that when we were having them in the office and there were other employees around, some of them were legitimately worried that the company was about to fall apart. Because the volume coming out of the room would be so high and sound so acrimonious, that they were legitimately worried the whole thing was gonna fall apart. But you know what's funny is that it never felt like that in the moment. It always felt like just a peak vigorous search for something better.