Radical Authenticity Over Marketing Tricks

`1:04:29`

behind the product? How would you describe... — It was the love behind the product. — Love? — Yes. — Say more about that. — Well, I don't want to get silly about it because you can't really love... — It's not silly. — I know, but it's a different version of love. — No, I love podcasts, so I know exactly what you're talking about. — Yeah. Yeah. — No, I love them. — Yes. — And when I make one, — Yes. -and listen to it before anybody else does — Yes. — and I'm like, "I'm happy with this," — Yes. — that is love. — Yes, that. — You're not silly. It's not silly to me. — Yeah, I know, I know. Okay, so there's a certain warmth, and tone that comes through when you make something you're really proud of in that way. We got proud about running the business for 27 years. I'm really proud of the products we make. The business, again, is like the envelope. I'm not proud of the envelope. I'm proud of the things that sustain the business,

`1:05:16`

which are the products. And I love getting them as right as I possibly can. And there is a warmth that comes to you when you're really proud to share something that you're done with, that you've finished, that you want to put out there in the world. And it could be a letter, it could be a line, it could be the right word in the right place, it could be an entire product, and it can also be a company, in a sense. But there is love reserved for that, for sure. — So, this is a love for the decentralized... I remember reading this. You were talking about if the actual creation of email is actually a miracle, we've just kind of f***** that up. — Yeah. It's amazing that anybody in the world can get in touch with anybody else. There's no platforms. Everything else is a platform.

`1:06:02`

You want to write someone on WhatsApp? Well, they have to have WhatsApp. Signal, they have to have Signal. Whatever, right? Email, beautiful thing. It's as beautiful as the web. The web is beautiful because anyone in the world with a web browser made by any company can use HTTP and connect to some other website. Same thing is true with basic email. These are the wonders of the world. And how did they become so despised? I blame Apple, I blame Google, I blame Yahoo, I blame Microsoft for making shit email products that they just don't care about. Now, they've started to care more about them. But they didn't care about them for a long time, and everybody knows that nobody cared, and so we care. I live in email sometimes. We don't use email inside our company, we use Basecamp,

`1:06:49`

but for the outside world, we use email. And I want to use tools I love. I want to use tools that matter to me. And if I'm going to spend most of my day in Basecamp, I want to make Basecamp. If I'm going to spend the other part of my day in HEY, in email, I want to make an email tool that I'm proud of, that I want to use, that I have a certain love for, and that's what that is. And that letter, it was a love letter, in fact, it ended, if I remember correctly like, "This is a love letter. HEY is our love letter to email," and I meant it. — Yeah, it's a great thing. It's an amazing thing. — You just used the word tool a few times. — Yeah. — Do you identify with Tobi Lütke? He's like, "I'm just a..." — Toolmaker. — Yeah. "I'm a toolmaker." — That's all I make, too. I make tools. — That's how you think about it? — Yeah, so when people are like, "What do you do?" I go like, "I'm in the software business," so they understand what I do,

`1:07:36`

but I don't like that term. I also don't like, "I'm in the tech industry." I'm not a tech person. I don't like that. I make tools, they just happen to be made of software. That's all I know how to do. I don't know how to make things out of wood. But I know how to make things out of software, and code and design and conceptual ideas. And so, yeah, I make tools. We make tools. We make levers. It's just a lever. It's a lever that lets you do more with it than you could without it. That's all it is. You can move more things. You can organize more people. You can come up with better ideas. You can see those ideas through. You can make progress with the products that we make. That's what a tool is for, is to make progress. — I'm fascinated by a lot of your time spent out of the business, and a lot of the inspiration that you derive in life seem to be from physical things. You just named a bunch. — Yes.