Radical Authenticity Over Marketing Tricks

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which is not textbook high quality. But it's beyond high quality because it's a perfect fit for what they wanted for themselves. That's the kind of stuff I like to build. — It's kind of how you're designing your company. — Yeah. Perfect fit for us, for what we want and what we need, and again, getting back to the original thing, how many other people are there out there like us? Enough. That's the business model. — This is exactly how I started doing the podcast. I think I'm drawn to that, too. I think in people, not companies, right? — Yeah — And this is why I was drawn to podcasts to begin with, because it's impossible. Some of these podcasters that I was fans of before I had a podcast, I've heard them speak for hundreds of hours.

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You can't hide who you are at that point. — Right. — You're going to like the good, you're going to hear the mistakes, and you used the word endearing, and that's exactly how I feel — Mm-hmm. — for some of the people that I admire. — Mm. — There's something about them that is endearing. In fact, a friend of mine just texted me this morning, my friend Lulu, she was listening to one of my old podcasts on Napoleon's maxims on Founders, — Uh-huh. — Episode 337, if I remember correctly. — Yeah. — And she thought it was hilarious that I didn't edit out the fact that I was mispronouncing all these French names. And I'm just like, I don't know. — Right. -I'm reading from the book. I'm like, "I don't know what this is. — Yeah. — I don't speak French, — Yeah. — so I'm just going to do this phonetically." — Yeah, just do it your way. — But it was endearing to her, — Of course. — that I didn't act like I speak French or anything. I was like, "I read books, — Yeah. — and I'm just guessing at how this is pronounced." — You're not putting on airs.

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I admire anyone who is truly themselves, and that's what that was for you. You're like, "I could have probably faked the accent." You watch TV news, and the guy uses the Hispanic accent for some Spanish word, and you're like, "That's weird." — I know. — You're trying too hard. If you don't speak Spanish, you don't need to fake the accent to try to speak Spanish, is what I was trying to get at. But you see it all the time. I don't know how to pronounce French words either. I'm not even going to try. I'll just say what I say and read it phonetically, and you could even say, "I don't know how to say this." — I do say it. Exactly. — Yeah. I don't know what this is. You're going to laugh at me, but this is what it... And then you move on, and no one gives a damn because you're you, and that's not the point of the story. The point of the story is not perfect French pronunciation,

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with seven words out of 5,000. It's like, what is the story, and who's telling it, and why are you telling it? That's what matters. Figuring out the stuff that actually matters is what's important about that process, and I think, again, running a business and making decisions about product, it's like, "What matters? What doesn't matter?" That's fun. — Going back to you writing these letters for the landing page. — Yeah. — Do you do it like Bezos, where they write it before the product is created? Or you're doing it after the fact? — In the middle, usually. So, like with HEY, I wrote one for HEY, which is our email service, and before we launched, before the product was even anywhere near done, I wrote the letter. — I need to interrupt you. — Yeah. — I was a fan of your writing. The first time we met, I showed you the Amazon. I was like, "Listen, I have receipts here. I've been reading

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— Yeah, yes. — your stuff for 13, 15 years." — Yeah. — I bought HEY, just because I wanted to give you money, because I'd buy your books, but I didn't have a team, and Basecamp's project management, — Right. — and I'm working by myself. — Yeah. — And so I couldn't ever give you money, and then you built up so much goodwill by teaching me so much through your writing that I was like, "Oh, I use email." — Yeah. — "I'm going to buy that product." — I appreciate that. — So, I am a proud subscriber of HEY, just because I was like, "I've got to give this... — Thank you. — I've got to pay you back somehow." — Thank you, I do that with other products too, where I'm not going to use them, but I just love the people behind them, and you want to support them. — It happens so much. — And it's a cool way... — This goes back to we identify with people, not companies. — Yes, and it's a cool way to purchase something. — Yeah. — Sometimes, the use is the support, not the actual use of the product.